Texas Honor Killing- Egyptian Father Murders 2 Teen Daughters UPDATE: Another Honor Killing in Chicago!
Honor Killings in Dallas and Chicago- 5 People Are Dead Including Pregnant Mother!
Sarah Said was an avid tennis player known as a silly but bright student. Her 18-year-old sister, Amina Said, was often called "the girl with pretty eyes," friends say -Star-Telegram.
Photo of murder victim Sarah Yaser Said 17 from Lewisville, Texas. Sarah, 17, and her sister Amina Yaser Said, 18, were murdered by their father, Yaser Abdel Said, late Tuesday. The father is still on the run.
One of the teens called 911 on a cell phone about 7:30 p.m. Tuesday and said she was shot, but she couldn't tell police where she was, Irving police said- AP.
The Star-Telegram reported:
Police continued their search Wednesday afternoon for the girls' father.The Fishwrap reported that the father "was Egyptian and critical of popular American lifestyles."
Shortly after 4 p.m., SWAT team members from Lewisville and the Denton County Sheriff's Department went into the suspect's home in Lewisville, after posting barricades outside and standing watch for about five hours, intermittently summoning anyone inside to exit. No one was found in the home, police said.
Yaser Abdel Said, the 50-year-old Lewisville father, remained at large, police said. He is accused of fatally shooting his 17- and 18-year-old daughters, police said.
Investigators did not describe the domestic issues or say who was involved.
Police said they suspect that Said may have shot his daughters -- Sarah Yaser Said, 17, and Amina Yaser Said, 18 -- and left them for dead in his taxi.
Police say Said lived in Lewisville with his wife, two daughters and a 19-year-old son.
Bryan at HotAir has been following the story closely.
Sarah and Amina were shot dead by their father on Tuesday night. (Fishwwrap)
Atlas and Debbie Schlussel have much more.
The father is still missing:
Yaser Abdel Said, a 50-year-old cab driver, is still missing. (KVUE)
Police have received no tips about Mr. Said's whereabouts but said numerous law enforcement agencies are involved in the search -DallasNews.
Hat Tip BG
Gates of Vienna has analysis.
*** UPDATE: Another honor killing in suburban Chicago!
A suburban Chicago man from India killed his pregnant daughter, her husband and his 3 year-old grandson by torching their home and burning them alive!
Stop Honor Killings and CNN reported:
A suburban Chicago man is accused of setting an apartment fire -- killing his pregnant daughter, her husband and their young child -- because the son-in-law didn't ask permission for the marriage, prosecutors said.
It took firefighters three hours to extinguish the blaze, which gutted the 36-unit Le Claire Station Apartments.
Subhash Chander, 57, of Oak Forest, Illinois, was ordered held without bond Tuesday on three counts of first-degree murder, one count of intentional homicide of an unborn child and one count of aggravated arson.
Prosecutors allege Chander used gasoline to start the fire late Saturday. The India native told police he disliked his son-in-law because he belonged to a lower caste and had married his daughter without his consent, said Cook County First Assistant State's Attorney Robert Milan.
"His son-in-law was beneath him in his opinion," Milan said.
On left is India native Subhash Chander (AP). On right is Monika Rani, 22, of Oak Forest, Ill.,who died in an apartment fire late Saturday, Dec. 29, 2007. Also killed in the fire were her husband Rajesh Kumar, 36, and their 3-year-old son, Vansh. (AP)
The family of Rajesh Kumar in India said that they do not even have the means to go to the US to get the bodies and are asking for help.
WMAQ in Chicago has video of the couple and their apartment building in flames.
(They had trouble with the word "husband" in this video!)
Monika Rani and Rajesh Kumar were expecting their second child.
The young family was burned to death in this fire set by the father. (WMAQ)
UPDATE 2: The manhunt continues for the Texas killer Yaser Abdel Said. The boyfriends of the two sisters are afraid the father may try to look them up.
I bet.
posted by Gateway Pundit at 1/03/2008 05:18:00 AM
110 Comments:
Keep repeating:
"Diversity is good"
"Morality is relative"
All these days, I thought the disgusting Racism here was the only violent thing, hmn,its sad that people from india do that even after coming here!
sounds like "hate crime" has taken on a whole new look...
This is what you get for letting non-christian and non-European's into God's greatest country
I guess monitoring families with ~20yo muslim girls would be racial profiling.
And profiling is bad. So much worse than some murders and 100 times more beatings and 1000 times more treaths.
The Chicago incident was not an Islamic related "Honor Killing", but rather involving the Hindu caste system, according to the Chicago Sun Times.
Where are the honor killings of males? Nada, big zero.
It is just so obvious that Muslims do not want to assimilate into American culture and traditions, and abide by the laws, but want to eventually impose their own and force us to follow their laws.
The true Godless treat women like crap; why they are let into predominately Christian countries is beyond me.
I wonder what exactly the girls did for the father to think he had a right to kill them. Did they go to movies, wear too much pink, talk to boys......what idiotic thing was so bad to this father that he thought he should kill them. We would like to explain it away as insanity, but are they all insane or just plain evil. I believe the latter to be true.
In the United States each day about 50 people are murdered. Apparently only some those killed should be considered "worthy victims" worthy of sympathy.
"Political scapegoating is an important tool of propaganda, the most famous example in modern history is the nazi propaganda of the Jews as the source of Germany's post WW I economic woes and political collapse.
Blaming any group Blacks,Jews, hippies, whatever for the actions of an individual is to try and create a aura of guilt by association. It is wrong and should not be done
I am just terribly sad for those beautiful young women.
And yes, we blame the murderer but we also blame the society which told the murderer, this is not only acceptable behavior BUT it is the HONORABLE thing to do.
This is what you get for letting non-christian and non-European's into God's greatest country
Amen, brother. Amen. If they don't want to live according to Western values, then they should stay home. What's that you say? Oh, they want the better lifestyle, but they also want to cling to their savage, backwards cultures. Sorry, everything in life is a tradeoff. You should only get to pick one.
Kailen,
How dare you criticize the Hindu Caste system and its ancient traditions of brutal ethnic and social segregation!
What are you, a hinduphobe?
According the the 'great religion of islam,' it was probably the girls fault.
How come only Blacks, Jews and hippies can't be blamed for anything? I feel I'm being trapped in an aura of guilt by association. Dammit, this is wrong! I was just going to post something. It's not like the posters here are killing anyone one.
I mean jeeze, people are going around killing their kids and the posters here get the anonymous moralizing treatment for merely making comments.
No. I'm going to disagree with you anonymous. Killing your kids for family honor is wrong and should not be done.
Two obviously insane people of Persian and Indian descent out of the millions who live peaceably in this country. Sounds like pretty good odds to me.
Alternatively, I'm all for racially profiling rednecks as they, percentage wise, appear unable to assimilate into Yankee society. Meth and domestic violence are at an all time high in these communities. I, for one, am simply shocked that no redneck leaders (I'm looking at you, Bush) have publicly denounced their brethren's unacceptable customs and behavior!
Yes, of all the Hindus and Muslims, one one insane one each.
Not that burning daughters who don't get married in time or correctly isn't common in India, or honor killings of muslim girls isn't common in Pakistan/Saudi/Yemen/Jordan/Iram/20 something other places...
And rednecks built America, citified liberals just want to milk it.
"Where are the honor killings of males? Nada, big zero."
Um, I'm no genius but I am capable of reading words and I believe the Chicago story involved the killing of the wife and the husband. Usually, husbands are male, but feel free to disagree. You probably ignored it b/c it did not fit your narrow-minded little vision of foreigners.... and the Hindu caste system has NOTHING to do with Islam. But again, most of you are ignorant about Islam so I don't expect you to have any real knowledge.
How many of you have actually researched honor killings in Islam? My guess is zero to none. My senior thesis was on this topic and I can share some knowledge with you that would totally destroy your idea that Islam encourages honor killings.
Quite the contrary, Islam discourages it. It is a purely societal crime. That's why Hindu caste systems have honor killings. As for male punishment, it's the same in the Qur'an for men and for women. And it is rarely punished by death. Actually, Deuteronomy is much harsher than the Qur'an. In the Qur'an, a wife accused of adultery can absolve herself merely by testifying she is innocent. Her word is taken ABOVE the male accuser. Bet you didn't know that?
This is just the tip of the iceberg. I have about 20 or 30 more pages of actual true information, not right-wing crap propoganda designed to portray all Muslims as woman-hating monsters.
I doubt any of you are actually interested in doing your own research. You'd rather listen to such esteemed "scholars" as Debbie Schlussel or whatever moron of the moment is touting himself or herself as an "expert" on Islam, just because he or she is a racist.
Have a nice day.
Both of these cases look like dishonor killings cases to my trained eye.
Ellen R. Sheeley, Author
"Reclaiming Honor in Jordan"
First of all, we don't know yet why the father killed the girls. It's possibly an "honor killing" situation. But it may not be. So let's not jump to conclusions before the facts (how about trying that? I know it's difficult for the people on this and other blogs but give it a shot).
Second, why do we act like this country doesn't have crimes similar to honor killings committed by non-Muslims? Let's take for example O.J. Simpson. If he had killed his ex-wife, would that not be an honor killing? In the town where I live, this past weekend, a man killed the current boyfriend of his ex-girlfriend. Is that not an honor killing of sorts?
Oh wait, I forgot. Crimes against women committed by their partners/ boyfriends/etc don't count as honor crimes in this country b/c this is America. We don't engage in that sort of behavior, right? We're the best. We rock... in case you missed it, that was sarcasm. Call a spade a spade.
Let's be clear about the fact that this country is not so fabulous for women either. Are honor killings horrible? Of course, they are. Are they Islamic in nature? Of course not. They are cultural. In that same vein, does domestic violence in this country (check out the stats, they're horrifying) not reflect a society generally uncaring toward women?
Let's not act like just because a woman can dress like a corner prostitute that means women are free. I'm tired of this asinine thinking that our highly sexually objectified view of women means women are free. Women in America are not free. The only difference is that women in this country are deluded into thinking they are free by male rhetoric.
And let's not act like the women in the Middle East are some "poor" creatures in need of Western saviors. Nothing can be further from the truth. I'm of Middle Eastern descent but was born and raised in America. And I'm pretty tired of this talk about how Arab/Muslim women need the West to save them.
Anonymous 2:27 PM - first off, I wasn't even addressing the incident involving the Hindu's, which would have been obvious to most by what I was stating in my comment.
Yah, I've seen and heard enough of honor killings amongst followers of Islam and followers of the many religions in India to draw my own modern day interpretation of what is what. I don't really care about who sanctifies honor killings or not, it is the fact that they are occurring regardless of what you believe to be true or believe to be written in the Koran. Reality is what counts, and the murdering of those two beautiful girls with their whole lives ahead of them - and if you hadn't noticed, we don't care about their religion or their race - is intolerable in America.
You are an idiot. We are standing up for the rights of those girls and others like them; you are standing up for your senior thesis. You are unbelievably ignorant.
Anonymous 5:39 PM - You have a huge chip on your shoulder. First off, in this case it is a father killing his daughters, which is disturbing whether or not it is an honor killing or not. Often honor killings involve brothers, uncles, fathers etc. murdering their sisters, nieces, daughters, etc. Maybe you do not realize, since you compare the murdering of wives by husbands, or girlfriends by boyfriends, but there is a very big difference. Neither are right, but one is far more disturbing than the other.
At least a crime against women in America is still considered a crime, unlike honor killings in many Muslim countries where no justice is sought for the women, and any justice sought is refuted.
I don't want to save you; I want you to leave and live amongst your brethern. Good Luck to you.
Joanne: Actually, it's not that obvious that you were referring to the sisters. You asked that question. Rambled quite a bit. Exhibited racist, xenophobic views. Then, 3 paragraphs later, mentioned the sisters. I was an English teacher for 3 years and even my middle school students would know what you exhibited was not logical writing or thinking but that's not a surprise.
And what is it that you believe to be in the Qur'an that sanctifies honor killings? See, that's the problem with pseudo-intellectuals like yourself. You don't care the cause of the problem. You don't care to investigate what leads to it or how to end it. You think that by posting your "outrage" on some conservative blog you are standing up for the rights of these girls.
Crap.
Other than what you read on rags like this, where do you get real information on the Middle East? Please don't give me a list of more conservative punditry. Give me a list of people with some real credentials. Give me a list of books you have read and investigated. My guess is that list would be very minute.
Your whole shtick is to get outraged, ignore the root causes of honor killings (which are not found in the Qur'an but notice you did not directly respond to the facts I gave you about the Qur'an: big shock!), and go about blindly condemning an entire religion and various ethnicities. Wow! Brilliant thinking process! I'm duly impressed.
Mind you, I'm not excusing honor killings. Any and all violence against women is wrong, unequivocally wrong. But you don't seem to understand that.
Violence against women is a crime in America. But how is it punished? A restraining order? Scary! We blame the victim when rape is the crime. So please don't feed me the bull line that women in America are so much better off because crime against us here is recognized as a crime. Labeling something as a crime without adequate punishment is pointless.
Oh, and why are the crimes you chose to label as "honor crimes" so much more disturbing than crimes by husbands against wives? I'll go ahead and answer to save you from self-examination. It's because one is done in America with regularity and the other is done in some foreign country. Therein lies the problem of so many issues Americans have with foreigners.
You, my dear, are the ignorant one. Ignorant on so many levels. But be not afraid. You're actually quite typical. You're in good company in this country.
It is never ok to murder a sister, daughter, wife, niece -- anywhere, ever.
We in the West must prosecute and punish the male perpetrators of these vicious vengeance murders to the full extent of our laws.
No cop-out of political correctness, moral or cultural relativism. This is not our custom and we _are_ our sisters' keepers.
Karen Tintori, author
Unto the Daughters: The Legacy of an Honor Killing in a Sicilian-American Family
www.karentintori.com
++
Anon @ 2:27 PM..
uh, i'd say that Indians & Muslims are ignorant of America's culture, else they wouldn't be murdering their daughters & burning their family members alive.. they want to abide by their culture, then they should stay in their country or adapt to their new homeland, simple as that..
==
++
Anon @ 7:49 PM..
"Honor Killing": Is it Islamic?
honor killings have gone on since the days of Muhammed, yet there is absolutely nothing in Islamic law that forbids "honor killings".. why is that do you suppose??
Koran's Support for Honor Killing (boy/infidels)
==
++
Toronto Girl Is Dead-- Strangled By Father For Refusing Hijab
Honor Killings
excerpts:
[The United Nations Population Fund estimates that the annual worldwide total of honor-killing victims may be as high as 5,000 women.]
[As of 2004, honor killings have occurred within parts of various countries, such as Albania, Brazil, Canada, Denmark, Ecuador, Germany, India, Iraq, Israel (within the Arab, Druze and Bedouin communities), Italy, the Palestinian territories, Saudi Arabia, Sweden, Uganda, and the United States.]
Honor Killings (video)
Muslim Men Do Nothing To Stop Honor Killings (video)
Human Rights
excerpt:
[Honor Killings
Honor killings, the violent assault and/or killing of a female by a male (usually a family member) because of a perceived lack of chastity, remain a serious problem throughout the Middle East and North Africa. In Iran, there is evidence of widespread honor killings in the western and southwestern provinces. The prison sentences for perpetrators were usually minimal. Neither Egypt nor Jordan have passed laws to punish perpetrators of honor crimes and killing, however, in Jordan there is some evidence of societal interest in public condemnation of honor crimes.]
The shame of “honor killings” in the Muslim world
excerpt:
[What did their eldest sister do that she be slaughtered like an animal? She was accused of adultery by her husband, from whom she fled because he had allegedly abused her and forced her to work in a brick-making factory. Mr. Ahmed did have one regret: "I wish that I get a chance to eliminate the boy she ran away with and set his home on fire." Police have said they do not know the identity or whereabouts of Muqadas' alleged lover.
I wish I could say that the above story came from a Hollywood film. Sadly, however, the above story is the true account of a so-called "honor killing" in Gago Mandi, a village in eastern Punjab province in Pakistan, as reported by the Associated Press on December 29, 2005. The Chicago Tribune reported a similar account of an honor killing in London: Heshu Yones, a 16-year old West London girl, had her throat slit by her father because she "had sullied the family name...by dating without his permission."
The story is always the same: a woman is accused of fornication or adultery and then mercilessly slaughtered by a male member of the family in order to defend the "family's honor." From where did this come? Where in the Qur'an does it sanction the murder of a woman on the mere accusation of adultery? What sort of barbarity is this?]
Women in Islam: Hijab
back up link
excerpts:
[The Qur'an advises the wives of the Prophet (SAS) to go veiled (33: 59).
In Surah 24: 31(Ayah), the Qur'an advises women to cover their "adornments" from strangers outside the family. In the traditional and modern Arab societies women at home dress quite differently compared to what they wear in the streets. In this verse of the Qur'an, it refers to the institution of a new public modesty rather than veiling the face.]
[The Qur'an lays down the principle of the law of modesty. In Surah 24: An-Nur: 30 and 31, modesty is enjoined both upon Muslim men and Muslim women 4:
Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for Greater purity for them: And God is Well-acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women That they should lower their gaze And guard their modesty: and they should not display beauty and ornaments expect what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that They must draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, or their women, or their slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their ornaments.]
[One of the verses in the Qur'an protects a woman's fundamental rights. Aya 59 from Sura al-Ahzab reads:
O Prophet! Tell Thy wives And daughters, and the Believing women, that They should cast their Outer garments over Their Persons (when outside): That they should be known (As such) and not Molested.]
Muslims Against Sharia
'Reputation is Everything'
excerpt:
[If a woman brings shame to the family--through allegations of premarital or extramarital sex, by refusing an arranged marriage, or attempting to obtain a divorce--her male relatives are bound by duty and culture to murder her.]
if "honor killing" is not permitted via the Quran, then it is Muslims who are ignorant..
==
Anonymous - I cannot help that your reading comprehension is low, and that when something isn't mentioned, it is not being talked about.
I think you have some serious psychological issues you need to address. Perhaps you do not give a damn about anyone other than yourself, but other people certainly do care about what happens to other people. You can view my outrage as crap and not reflective of my standing up for the rights of these girls, but you are wrong.
For some strange reason you are offended that women in the west are outraged by honor killings. If women have it so good in the Middle East, why aren't you living there....in the land of the free.
It was just mentioned on the News that women who are raped in Pakistan can be tried for adultery, and it is not illegal to beat your wife. Gee, sounds like real freedom and progress to me. If you think women in the west have it so bad, why haven't you left yet and given us poor bastards a break from your rhetoric.
You should try to stay on topic instead of going off the handle about how bad the women in America have it. Women in the west have it bad enough without having some holier-than-thou want-out-of-here-but-going-nowhere intellectual-want-to-be ranting about how it is no different in America than some foreign country. Girl, lift your head out of the sand....here is as free as it gets for women and if you have half a brain, which is questionable, you'll know I'm right.
There should be no tolerance of any violence towards women. Give me one good reason westerners should tolerate honor killings......what, because it is no different than what is already happening to women in the west. Bloody poor argument!
You just don't like people dissing your culture, when you believe they have nothing to brag about themselves. You do not belong in America - time to pack those bags with burkas and head off to the Middle East; I hear it is warm this time of year....got that off the Weather Channel.
++
Anon @ 7:49 PM..
i cannot "ignore your rant"..
husbands killing wives or children, or wives killing husbands or children, is not an American cultural tradition, nor is it in any way connected to a religious law..
in America, we have laws against the deliberate killing of innocents of any kind..
whereas "honor killings" consist of a cultural tradition tolerated both politically & religiously by virtue of the QU'RAN of DAUGHTERS, SISTERS OR FEMALE CHILDREN by MALE family members as a DUTY related to ISLAM namely via MODESTY LAWS in the QU'RAN (Hadith, or whatever, it's in there)..
there are no Islamic laws prohibiting "HONOR KILLINGS".. and like i said, if "HONOR KILLINGS" are against ISLAM, then MUSLIMS ARE IGNORANT of the QU'RAN, not us red-neck or conservative infidels..
btw: comparing apples to oranges also
equates "ignorance", simple as that..
==
"bg": I absolutely love that most of those links you provide are for YouTube videos... hahaha!!! Is that the extent of your research abilities? Google and YouTube. My former middle school students know better than that.
Oh, and did you even read what you posted links to or did you just pick the best sounding ones off Google? If you had read them, you would have come to find out that the Qur'an doesn't sanction honor killings. But hey, reading may be too mentally taxing a challenge. Better to just post links.
Also, links to other propaganda from blogs doesn't count as valid research. What does count is actually picking up a book (you know what that is, right?), reading it, reading the opposing side, and then DRAWING YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS!!! It's a fantastic intellectual exercise. I highly recommend it.
Joanne: I don't mind people pointing out the problems in my culture. That's why I chose honor killings as my senior thesis topic. However, my problem is when ignorant people listen to other ignorant people and just assume everything they hear is true.
First, nothing has been concluded as to the motive behind these killings in Texas. One person said something about honor killings and the whole conservative idiot bandwagon jumped on board. Really, it's so easy with you morons, isn't it?
Second, "intellectual want-to-be" is such a fantastically stupid phrase, coming from yourself, someone who has not offered a bit of first-hand knowledge or analysis of her own. I won't go on about my intellectual abilities, as to not embarras you but suffice it to say that a scholarship to a good law school is evidence of my abilities.
Third, I have to address the issues facing American women because Americans generally act like they are the saviors of the world. Would you care if these same honor killings were committed by non-foreigners? Doubt it. Let's not kid ourselves that we value life as a society here either. Just because something is labeled a crime doesn't mean that the punishment ever fits.
Do I need to list the cases of parents who kill their children for far more minor reasons than honor? How about Susan Smith, who drowned her two boys to have a relationship with another man? How about the couple who killed their 4-year-old daughter b/c she lacked manners and then threw her body into the Gulf? These are horrific. And if we are judging society by the acts committed by those living in that society, then America has a painful black eye. That's exactly what you're doing to Middle Eastern society.
People in glass houses....
"whereas "honor killings" consist of a cultural tradition tolerated both politically & religiously by virtue of the QU'RAN of DAUGHTERS, SISTERS OR FEMALE CHILDREN by MALE family members as a DUTY related to ISLAM namely via MODESTY LAWS in the QU'RAN (Hadith, or whatever, it's in there).. "
bg: did you even finish high school? That paragraph makes no sense but I'll ignore the pathetic writing for now and focus on the pathetic message. You show your true ignorance by clearly stating you do not even know what you're talking about (see "Qur'an, Hadith, or whatever, it's in there"). Amazing! How clueless can you be!
People, please make it worth my time in debating you by actually having logical ideas supported by real facts (not YouTube videos). You embarass yourselves. Have a little more dignity than that. You come off sounding just like the redneck idiots you are.
I know nothing would make "ya'll" happier than my leaving but I am enjoying this far too much. Let's see if any of you have the guts to respond (with something other than random Google search results and fake sympathy).
++
Anon @ 11:09 AM;;
those are you're opinions, not facts.. and i never said the Qu'ran "sanctioned" honor killings..
however, since you pride yourself of supposed knowledge of Muslim culture / tradition.. why can't you answer my questions??
your posts are petty and juvenile,
and you question my education??
==
to joanne and bg:
"annoy"nymous is just an arrogant, self-inflated, cockroach...and "like yeah..i'm going to like..totally...write like most real middle schoolers write..u know what i'm sayin'?" like yeah and like i work with enough honest Muslims and Hindus that have told me how their culture and religion support so called "honor" killings and that's why so many of them are living in America because they want to get away from that crap, unfortunately many bring those f'ed up beliefs into this great country and kill their daughters, sisters, etc..female relatives because they brought "shame" to the family.
I don't need to read or view conservative news or propaganda to see that Muslims are the main ones doing most killings, suicide bombings in all parts of the world and that most Muslims are killed at the hands of other Muslims than any other religion...now, in the present time.
bg: actually, you did state that the Qur'an or hadith or whatever (as you so eloquently put it) does not prohibit honor killings. Thus, you are saying the Qur'an does implicity sanction such killings. Yet you fail to prove your point. Where does the Qur'an explicitly say honor killings, AS THEY ARE COMMITTED TODAY, are fine.
I'll save you the brainwork. The answer is: nowhere. Nowhere does the Qur'an sanction what is happening in terms of honor killings.
What people fail to realize is that the people who commit honor killings are acting out of cultural incitation, not a religious one. Do not blame Islam for honor killings.
For a male or a female (both genders are guilty in the Qur'an) to be found guilty of adultery or fornication, the trial and punishment must be done within an Islamic setting. A dad, brother, uncle, etc. killing a female relative on suspicion of wrongdoing is completely unIslamic, per Islamic texts!
What is hard to understand about that! Just because something happens in a Muslim country does not mean it is sanctioned by Muslim religious texts.
By that same logic, follow me here: This is supposedly a Christian society. Most of the people in this country who rape or molest children are Christians (by virtue of this being a "Christian" country). Would it then follow that Christianity is the reason for pedophilia? No, just like Islam is not the reason for honor killings, especially since Islamic texts do not condone what is happening in terms of honor killings.
You all need to separate the religion from the culture. Otherwise, the tables can be turned very easily.
hababa:
Please explain to me how Islam supports honor killings, as they are being done in different parts of the world, since you work with so many honest Muslims and Hindus who have enlightened you. Can you point to specific text to support this claim? Or are you just another ignorant blowhard with nothing but empty words? My bet: the latter is true. Prove me wrong.
And please explain to me the difference between an honor killing and a crime of passion. I've studied numerous cases in law school where a man kills his wife after finding her in a compromising position with someone else and then kills her. Said murderer often gets a much lighter sentence because it is thought that the adultery would make any man react in such a manner.
So that's different from honor killings how? Because one is done in the context of the American legal system and one is not. Face it, it is no different from an honor killing. The cuckhold husband kills the wife because she betrayed his honor. Same situation. Different races/religions. So in your mind, the situation is "apples and oranges." Explain how it's any different.
++
Anon @ 8:05 PM..
[bg: actually, you did state that the Qur'an or hadith or whatever (as you so eloquently put it) does not prohibit honor killings. Thus, you are saying the Qur'an does implicity sanction such killings. Yet you fail to prove your point. Where does the Qur'an explicitly say honor killings, AS THEY ARE COMMITTED TODAY, are fine.]
no, i said the MODESTY LAWS related
to "honor killings" are in there..
and i don't give a damn about your attempt to "equate" AMERICAN HUSBANDS killing their WIVES vs MALE members of MUSLIM FAMILIES killing THEIR DAUGHTER'S & SISTERS on mere suspicion at times.. it is apples vs oranges.. as crimes of passion are NOT the same thing, crimes of passion are not carried out against daughter's & sisters, and they most certainly are not related to Quranic MODESTY LAWS as are honor killings..
and i don't give a bats guano if every one else in the entire world were committing honor killings, i want an answer as to why are there NO LAWS AGAINST HONOR KILLINGS IN ISLAM, THE RELIGION OF PEACE?? why?? why?? why??
WHY CAN'T YOU ANSWER THAT SIMPLE QUESTION??
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Honor Killings...... you have no idea. No one understands tradition. It has to be the most scariest thing for ppl like me. Fuck tradition and the Arabs that follow such crap. I hate it. And you know what, you're right. There is no damn anything done against the boys. I've lived in fear no one would believe. Do you know how it feels to think that you're dad might kill you? We get scared b/c a simple rumor passed on to our fathers would lead to our demise. But you know what everyone says? "Why not just runaway." As if running away solves anything. No one understands tradition. I hate it...my cousins hate it... But it's always the females. We have never had a male that feared for his life the way we do. And no one could ever imagine how it feels like to hide in your closet because your dad heard something that wasn't even true. How many of you have ever been threatened by your dad? Yes, I am saying dad. My dad doesn't know me. He never took the time to. He scares me more than the devil himself. It is haram, it is TABOO to do what these ppl are doing. You want to know why they do it? To wipe the "shame" away. B/c "boys can do a bazillion things wrong and it wouldn't effect them; but a girl can do one mistake and it could tarnish her future and the family name."
You don't know how terrifying it is. You can't even think. You're always put in this position as if any second will be your last breathe.... It's terrifying. I have contemplated about leaving... countless times I have.... but what would happen to the girls in my family if I do so?
I hate living like this. Don't you dare for second think it has anything to do with religion. These are all Traditionally raised idiot that commit such horrendous murders. Islam is completely against it. It is God's duty to punish a person who has sinned... not anyone else.
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RK @ 9:41 PM..
may God watch over you & protect you in your insidious situation.. i cannot imagine the pain..
but i would still like to know.. if killing is so against Islam on the one hand, why honor killings are allowed to go on unfettered on the other.. if killing is against Islam, then so should honor killings whether honor killings are related to the Islamic religion or not.. i just want to know why honor killings are so accepted in Islam, and why there is no law against it??
thank you..
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RK: thank you for your comments. Believe it or not, I know exactly how you feel, as I was raised in America but with a traditional Middle Eastern family. It's horrible, but it's also un-Islamic.
BG: abortion is unChristian, right? This is a nation based on Christian values. Why no law outlawing abortion? Why??? Why??? The tables can always be turned, my friend. So be careful about pointing out the inadequacies in laws. Just because Jordan, Egypt, etc are Islam-majority countries does not mean they are "Islamic" countries. Tradition in these places is VERY hard to overcome. In Jordan, some people are starting to make a lot of noise about changing the law. It will happen as the next generation gets more Westernized. But it won't happen overnight because honor killings pre-date Islam by a long time. Because of how ingrained this notion is in the culture of these countries, it is hard for lawmakers to just make it illegal overnight. Look at how long it took for slavery to end in this country. The worst thing you can do, however, is point fingers at Islam as the culprit. It is not; rather, it is the culture that pre-dated Islam that generated honor killings.
So there you go. There's your answer. Pleased?
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good grief, the typical liberal apples to oranges, bait & switch, semantics games.. stick to the topic.. an abortion debate is not going to NEGATE HONOR KILLINGS in Islamic culture, tradition or religion, of which i am told over & over again is "the religion of peace" & "the way of life" or "Islam/Quran is Allah's command", etc, etc, etc.. iow: there are no laws, no reasonings beyond Islam/Quran, Allah demands total dedication to Islam/Quran, Islam/Quran is Allah's words & Muhammed is Islams prophet, etc, etc, etc..
so honor killings have nothing to do with religion, yeah right.. i mean, it's not like Muslims don't have to totally detach themselves from or step outside of their religious beliefs to commit these honor killings, right?? i mean, while there's no literal sanctioning of honor killings in the Quran, there's also nothing spoken against honor killings in the Quran, and honor killings are not only tolerated, but practiced in Islamic culture/tradition.. and albeit committed in the name of Allah, supposedly regardless of religion.. or are you telling me that Muslim culture and/or tradition are SEPARATE entities totally unrelated to Islam??
"If you kill one person it's
as if you kill all humanity"
so which is it.. do Muslims live
& die by Islams Quran or not??
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Anon @ 4:53 AM..
[Tradition in these places is VERY hard to overcome. In Jordan, some people are starting to make a lot of noise about changing the law. It will happen as the next generation gets more Westernized. But it won't happen overnight because honor killings pre-date Islam by a long time. Because of how ingrained this notion is in the culture of these countries, it is hard for lawmakers to just make it illegal overnight. Look at how long it took for slavery to end in this country. The worst thing you can do, however, is point fingers at Islam as the culprit. It is not; rather, it is the culture that pre-dated Islam that generated honor killings.]
i agree with that, but until Islam is reformed, please don't tell me i am deaf, dumb & blind to honor killings just because they are!!
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Anon @ 4:53 AM..
OT.. re:
[Look at how long it took for slavery to end in this country.]
that's another thing Islam sanctions, Arab culture created slavery.. slavery is still practiced in parts of the Arab culture.. slaves are noted in the Quran via MODESTY LAWS for one example..
Muslims seem to live in a culture/tradition vs an Islam/Quran parallel world.. i'd call that having your cake & eating it too, go figure..
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bg @ 9:56 PM: Thank you. It does mean a lot when one acknowledges the fact that such things exist. But I'm afraid I cannot answer your question. I hear terrifying stories about the ways many girls have been killed on a daily basis... I never hear what's done to the person who did the killing. (May God forgive them because I never will.)
Many people feel as if it's a justful thing to do. As if by destroying the cause of drama then all the pain along with it will die too. It doesn't make sense to me. And currently.. I just haven't been thinking. It's been a very stressful semester, and I don't even have a semblance of calm anymore. My mental state is collapsing. I can barely muster a clear sentence.
I don't know what will come first... me killing myself or running away. Both are so tempting.
It's so hard to live
Anonymous @ 4:53 AM (Jan.5):
Of all my relatives and friends' fathers, I'd have to say that my father is the scariest. I don't like controlling people, and that's exactly what he is. He's a terrifying person whom you would never want to make mad. He thinks with his fists before anything else. I think it's worse though when you get beat for something you absolutely had nothing at all to do with. That tells you that you aren't trusted. It tells you that your words mean nothing. I have always been a truthful person. You can't take my word on that because you don't know me. But I always have. I never go out. I can't drive. I'm not even entrusted with a cell phone. The University I go to is a minute away from home. And even then I have a curfew for when I am to leave school. I have never been to a friends' house and I do not supposed to acknowledge boys. I do have friends that are males, naturally. But I can't acknowledge that I do when I'm in my home.
You say you understand me? Then it mustn't shock you too much if I tell you that I have thought of suicide and running away.
It's an endless spiral that needs to be stopped. But who's going to help? Women are naturall afraid to speak up... they are looked down upon if they do so. And what are men going to do, huh? Those asses make life even the more harder. They think they are everything. That they can beat us and control us by using violence and threats.
In Islam... in the Qur'an, it tells us that Honor Killings are haram. But that doesn't stop people. There many things that people do that's sinful..taboo. It still happens.
It doesn't matter. It still happens. We try to fight it. But it doesn't do anything. I mean after all, why would we have to worry about it if we are good girls? It shouldn't affect us, they say.
....Bull
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RK @ 10:40 AM..
(((hugs)))
are there no organizations you
can reach out to for help??
i just emailed DR. M. Zuhdi Jasser asking him if there is any org or council he could afford me as to help you..
don't know if or when i'll receive a reply, but you can email me via grannyshrek@gmail.com any time you like, or you can try emailing him yourself.. :)
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"There is nothing in the Qur'an that violates human rights"
excerpt:
[Rather than regarding women as human beings equal to men, the Qur'an likens a woman to a field (tilth), to be used by a man as he wills: "Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will" (2:223).
The Qur'an also declares that a woman's testimony is worth half that of a man: "Get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her" (2:282).
It allows men to marry up to four wives, and have sex with slave girls also: "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice" (4:3).
It rules that a son's inheritance should be twice the size of that of a daughter: "Allah (thus) directs you as regards your children's (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females" (4:11).
The Qur’an tells husbands to beat their disobedient wives: "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them" (4:34).
It allows for marriage to pre-pubescent girls, stipulating that Islamic divorce procedures “shall apply to those who have not yet menstruated” (65:4).
And of course it counsels Muslims to make war against Jews and Christians until they submit to Islamic authority and pay a special tax: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (9:29).
And it says that those who "make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land" -- an elastic term that could mean almost anything -- should be punished by crucifixion, double amputation, or exile: "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land" (5:33).
Now, in light of all that and more, please don't tell us that "there is nothing in the Qur'an that violates human rights." We can read, and at face value passages like these are clearly in violation of numerous human rights norms. Now, it may be that these passages and others like them are interpreted in some benign way in mainstream Islam, although that is often asserted and seldom buttressed with any evidence. In that case, it would be more honest to acknowledge that there are many problematic passages in the Qur'an, but that mainstream Islam has spiritualized them, or rejected their universal validity, or some such.]
links to verses @ link..
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OT.. re:
[It allows for marriage to pre-pubescent girls, stipulating that Islamic divorce procedures “shall apply to those who have not yet menstruated” (65:4).]
Ayatollah Khomeini's Religious Teachings
on Marriage, Divorce and Relationships
excerpt:
["A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual act such as forplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not comitted a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man's four permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl's sister."]
what a beautiful religion.. don't have a clue as to why it's not called Taqqiyah (aka: talking out both sides of ones mouth) vs Islam, anyone??
oh btw Anon.. to answer your abortion question anyways, it's very simple.. in Islam, Church & State are inseparable.. whereas Christianity in the US is.. with all your education, i'm surprised you didn't know that..
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I am a mother of 4 beautiful amazing children , who are a precious gift from God I would never hit abuse neglect, my precious children, there is no "honor" in honour killings, and there is no reason whatsoever to ever, for a parent to ever think that it is ok to murder your child/children for any reason, whatsoever these parents who murder will burn in Hell for all eternity , God is watching us all.
Anonymous - I hate to point it out but you taught Grade 6 English, yah, great accomplishment....it would be nice if you learnt how to spell. You shouldn't brag about yourself, it is rather unbecoming.
Why don't you present some text or book for verification of what you believe rather than requesting it of others. We are not on trial here; present your own damn evidence if you will it.
"Would you care if these same honor killings were committed by non-foreigners? Doubt it."
This is where your problem lies Anonymous, you believe because you are Muslim, a follower of Islam, that that is the reason we are objecting to honor killings. If non-foreigners killed their daughters we would even be more horrified, because although the number of cases of mothers and/or fathers killing their children and vice versa are on the rise, it is still a relatively new phenomenon today and beyond comprehension. Do you really think that if we found out the father that killed his daughters did not do it to protect his family's honor, but rather because he is just an ordinary murderer, we would feel any different for the loss of his daughters? Why would a Muslim father kill his daughters, but not his son or wife? I can hardly think you believe these killings were not honor killings or even question it.
You fail to see the difference between honor killings that are accepted by Muslim culture - I do not know if it is condoned specifically in the Koran - and murders in America. Murders in America are not accepted, even though we can all complain about their judgments or should I say, lack of judgments. In Muslim countries honor killings are accepted just by the fact that they happen on a regular basis and that nothing is done about them.
Why is a woman who is raped in a Muslim country considered to be the perpetrator of the crime?
Why are honor killings perpetrated against females and not against males?
Joanne:
Actually I no longer teach middle school. The American education system is a joke at best. Now I'm in law school. I mentioned that in one of my posts but you conveniently overlooked it. Am I correct to assume you are British, since "learnt" is British English, whereas "learned" is American English. Or do you just not know how to spell the past tense of learn. Oh, and which words did I misspell?
As for sources, here goes:
Quran 17:32: prohibition on adultery (referred to as zina; applies to both males and females)
Quran 24:2: punishment for "woman AND man guilty of adultery or fornication is to flog each of them with a hundred stripes"
Quran 24:3: summary is that if someone cannot produce four witnesses to testify to the illicit sexual intercourse, then the ACCUSER gets flogged (notice how testimony is required, not just a suspicion)
Quran 24:6-9: allows a wife accused of adultery to avoid punishment by swearing her innocence; her testimony OVERRIDES that of the man accusing her
Hadith 2:18:154 in Bukhari: male and females are forbidden from engaging in illicit sexual intercourse
Hadith 2:23:329 in Bukhari: even those who have committed illicit sexual intercourse will enter Heaven
Hadith 009:3570 in Sahih Muslim: if a man catches his wife in flagrante delicto, he cannot do anything to her (no crime of passion allowed). He must get four witnesses to the actions of his wife and then bring her to trial. Of course, she has to swear to her innocence to avoid punishment (notice how the rule of law is followed and men can't go around killing women).
That's from actual Islamic text, not from Wikipedia or YouTube. See, what I did is actually go to the text (you know, books) and conduct something called "research," which involves reading different sources and then figuring things out. It's actually kind of cool. You ought to try it sometime.
Now, who has actual Islamic text (Qur'an or Hadith) which support the way honor killings are done in different parts of the world today? Anyone? Anyone at all?... Didn't think so.
Just to put the pieces of the puzzle together for our slower-minded friends on here. A country supposedly calls itself "Islamic." When you point to countries like Jordan, Egypt, Pakistan, etc where honor killings happen, you point to countries where the majority is Muslim. That is the only characteristic that makes them "Islamic" countries. As such, the people in places of authority do not have religious training. They are ingrained in a culture that, while calling itself Islamic, has gone against Islamic texts. That may be a bitter pill to swallow for some of you. But it's the truth.
And the comparison with abortion is exactly on point. You just don't like it, which is why you dismiss it. Stay with me here and I'll explain. America calls itself a Christian nation because it was supposedly founded on Christian values and the majority of the people are Christian (that's the line people try to sell, isn't it?). Jordan is a Muslim nation because it was supposedly founded on Muslim values and the majority of the people are Muslim.
So far so good, right?
Okay, this Christian nation of ours allows abortion, though it was founded on Christian values (see, you can't have it both ways: it's a Christian nation but it's not a Christian nation: choose one). Jordan allows un-Islamic honor killings, thought it was founded on Islamic values.
See how they are the same? Please tell me you at least have that much logic in your feeble minds. If you still don't see the connection, please explain to me the difference. If Christians in this country really valued life, then they would do something to end abortion. Just like what you require of Muslims in the Middle East. Not an easy task, is it?
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Anon @ 5:05 PM..
my post included links to the Quranic verses, where's your link??
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Anon @ 5:05 PM.. re:
"Now, who has actual Islamic text (Qur'an or Hadith) which support the way honor killings are done in different parts of the world today? Anyone? Anyone at all?... Didn't think so."
you're all over the place, needless to say.. you're not following my conversation / debate..
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bg:
See, I used this thing called a book and relied on actually reading it for myself. Thus I have no link to what some other person wrote, unlike you linking to another biased website. How brilliant of you!.. sorry to actually ask you to look it up "on the internet" yourself. Is that too difficult for you? I'm sure it's pretty easy to find website that actually have the entire Qur'an on them where you can search for the chapters I listed.
Try it.
http://www.islamonline.net/surah/english/surahSearch.asp
There you go. Now you can read for yourself, instead of relying on what some other Islamophobe wrote.
Oh, bg, how interesting that you say I'm all over the place when none of your cited verses actually refer to honor killings. Did you even notice that?
Those verses are useless without context. I can easily do a search for Biblical verses which are just as violent and perverse. What does that prove?
You are the one who can't stay on topic. Since you cannot find any idiot blogger who can provide Islamic text to support your viewpoint, you rely on the old standby: "Gee, Bubba, I ain't got nothin that makes any sense. How's this? Them Muzlims hate Jews, right? How about we find us somethin that says somethin about Jews? Throw in somethin about girls too. That'll show 'em."
How about you stay on topic, if possible?
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Anon @ 5:11 PM..
"See how they are the same?"
yes, but on a purely benign theoretical level.. in reality, no.. bottom line: ONE DOES NOT NEGATE THE OTHER..
so it's back to apples & oranges again, as abortion has nothing to do with honor killings & vise versa.. in Islamic nations the Quran is a "way of life".. if honor killings are tolerated & practiced.. then Islam is a lie..
as i will point out to you for the second & last time..
THERE IS NO SEPARATION OF CHURCH & STATE IN ISLAMIC NATIONS.. and albeit not found anywhere in the US Constitution.. THERE IS A SEPARATION OF CHURCH & STATE IN AMERICA..
Roe vs Wade was not a properly made law.. i believe that's what Christians are still working on rectifying... what are they doing to rectify honor killings in Islamic States??
oh btw.. perhaps you should go back & read the links between the 2 or 3 YT links & check the sources..
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"I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."--Genesis 3:16
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."--1 Tim. 2:11-14
Deuteronomy 22:13-31: actually permits honor killings if a girl fails "the virgin test"
Deuteronomy 22:23-24: stone to death a virgin who was raped
1 Corinthian 14:34: "Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says."
I know some of these are from the Old Testament, but hey, it's your book too as Christians. I'm sure there are plenty of verses which exalt women and hold them to high honor. But since you read selective verses out of context from an Islamophobe blog, I can do the same for Christianity.
I know your response already: but these things aren't practiced in Christian countries today? All that means is that Christians aren't following the entire Bible as they should. The Bible says to kill girls who are raped. Aren't you a Christian? Shouldn't you support that? The Bible says you should stone to death a girl who did produce blood on her wedding night as proof of her virginity? Shouldn't you support that?
Or do Christians get a free pass to alter the Bible as they wish and ignore the reality of what the Bible says?
Naturally, you will all accuse me of trying to change the subject because you are afraid of dealing with the truth. That's what makes you all so sad and simple-minded.
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Anon @ 5:54 PM..
Oh, bg, how interesting that you say I'm all over the place when none of your cited verses actually refer to honor killings. Did you even notice that?
did you ever notice that i never stated honor killings were sanctioned via the Quran?? but they ar related to MODESTY LAWS in the Quran, as are the general laws relating to women as lower case humans, ie: like chattel (not to mention slaves, concubines, & allowances for pedophilia)..
btw, you can blast me all you like, it won't
change the facts of the matter one iota..
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bg:
Please explain to me the relationship, in very clear terms, between modestly laws and the way honor killings are committed today. Maybe I'm having a slow night, as I'm heavily into studying some constitutional law cases right now and this is a pleasant distraction.
As it seems, you are saying because the Qur'an requires modesty, that is a de facto justification or de facto permission of honor killings. Otherwise, your point makes no sense. I'm trying to understand this supposedly valid point you are so desperately trying to make.
bg:
do the verses I submitted for your perusal mean absolutely nothing? Or would you rather just ignore them because they fly directly in the face of your futile argument?
See, the verses I posited are DIRECTLY related to the idea of honor killings. You are trying to prove a point in a completely roundabout way. And you choose to ignore the verses I put forth because they contradict your every argument.
The verses you put forth have been heavily studied by Islamic scholars especially in terms of "asbab al-nusul" which means the "manner of the revelation." At the time of Islam's start in the Middle East, many traditions were abound that were in violation of Islam, such as burying newborn daughters. Islam could not come out, guns a-blazing, and change everything immediately.
Something similar happened with Christianity with the date of December 25 being the birth of Jesus.
However, when you read the Quranic verses in a timeline, you will see that the more Islam gained followers, the more "pleasant" it became towards women. In a way, those early verses were a marketing ploy, to put it in modern terms to get people interested in Islam.
So your verses, while not very nice to women, do need to be understood in context. Otherwise, the Biblical verses I put forth are perfectly representative of the truth of Christianity.
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Anon @ 6:08 PM..
CHRISIANITY HAS BEEN REFORMED..
ISLAM HAS NOT EVEN COME CLOSE..
lol.. now you're a comedian, i don't get my info via Islamophobes..
ps: your link didn't work, besides, i haven't the time not the ambition to read either the Bible or the Quran..
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oh btw.. whatever is written in the Bible also does NOT NEGATE HONOR KILLINGS, which are occurring in real life, real time..
like i said, you're all over the place, you haven't been following the conversation / debate..
you keep pointing fingers every which
way except at the issue at hand